La verdad sobre aislados e hidrolizados

He estado leyendo un estudio sobre la respuesta insulínica de distintas bebidas combinando proteína (usan hidrolizado de suero, hidrolizado de trigo, hidrolizado de ¿guisante? -pea- y caseína), carbos (glucosa - malto) y diferentes aminoácidos (leucina libre, arginina, glutamina, fenilalanina).

Gana claramente el wheat protein hydrolisate con leucina y fenilalanina, aunque se advierte de la respuesta insulínica inmediata de todas las bebidas (hasta 10); sin embargo después se presentaban enormes diferencias (durante la segunda hora).

El primer tema es si esto es una ventaja o no; es decir, si nos conviene que la insulina se mantenga alta tanto tiempo después de entrenar.

Segundo, tampoco tengo claro si podríamos concluir que ése es el "mix" perfecto post entreno, pues el estudio sólo habla de la respuesta insulínica. Adjunto, por si ayuda, las tablas de concentración de aminoácidos en plasma sanguíneo después de la ingesta de las diferentes bebidas.

Finalmente, me ha sorprendido que la bebida 8 (caseína, glucosa y malto) tenga una respuesta inuslínica posterior superior a la 5 (hidrolizado de suero, glucosa y malto); la 9 y la 10 llevaban una menor cantidad de hidrolizado de trigo y añadido de aminoácidos, y la respuesta insulínica era mayor también. Ganaba de largo la 7, sin añadido de aminoácidos y una cantidad mayor de hidrolizado de trigo.

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Tratemos de discutir aquí cuál sería un mix óptimo para el post entreno, obviando macas, en principio, y refiriéndonos a los diferentes tipos de proteína y su administración.

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Por otro lado, si en principio todo apunta a que la mejor proteína post entreno sería un hidrolizado, hay fuentes que difieren:

Some manufactures sell whey protein hydrolysates, meaning the whey is predigested into peptides (small chains of amino acids). These supposedly help the protein be absorbed better. However, the use of hydrolysates is based on a study involving enteral nutrition, 15 meaning the protein was supplied directly to the patients' intestines via a tube. Since you don't bypass your stomach when you chug down a protein shake, and since your stomach does a nice job of breaking the whey into peptides, a hydrolysate probably won't be absorbed any better than an intact protein.

Now, a hydrolysate might be absorbed faster than an intact protein because it's already broken down. It might therefore help recovery when taken after training. However, in one study, there was no difference in the anabolic response of muscle when amino acids, the building blocks of protein, were ingested one or three hours after a resistance training session. 22

Therefore, whether you get amino acids to muscle tissue quickly using a hydrolysate or a little bit slower using an intact protein, it probably won't make a difference in your strength gains over the long haul. Susan Kleiner, PhD, of High Performance Nutrition on Mercer Island, Washington, puts it this way: "I think that the exact protein probably doesn't matter as long as it's a high-quality protein."

Some people may also claim that a whey hydrolysate will result in better muscle growth, citing a study on rats. 21 In this study, the starving rats gained more weight when fed a hygrolysate as compared to an intact protein.

Since starvation and other factors change your body's protein metabolism, and since these are rats, not human athletes, this study doesn't rally offer much in terms of practical application.

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Por cierto, el hidrolizado, para quien no lo sepa, es proteína predigerida enzimaticamente. Normalmente va del 80 al 90%. A mayor grado de hidrolisis, mayor predigestión y también peor sabor (y mucho mayor precio). Los de más calidad rozan un 20%.

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El añadido de aminoácidos no sólo parece tener beneficios sobre la secreción de insulina, sino también sobre la síntesis proteica:

Earlier on I mentioned the benefits to using BCAA's for their additional effect of stimulating muscle protein synthesis.

For some unknown reason, valine, isoleucine and especially leucine, have the unusual property of directly stimulating protein synthesis, even if other amino acids aren't provided (Yoshizawa, 2004, Lynch et al., 2002). As a bit of a bonus, preliminary research suggests that the amino acid phenylalanine can also directly stimulate muscle protein synthesis (Smith et al., 1998).

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Al hilo de esto:

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Nov 23;

The combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases post-exercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.

Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Nutrition Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

The present study was designed to determine post-exercise muscle protein synthesis and whole-body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to 3 trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein and free leucine (CHO+PRO+leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(13)C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the m. vastus lateralis as well as whole-body protein turnover during 6 h of post-exercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+leu compared to the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240+/-19% and +77+/-11%, respectively, P<0.05). Whole-body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole-body protein synthesis rates were higher in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+leu trials compared to the CHO trial (P<0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared to the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial, but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+leu trial, whole-body net protein balance was significantly greater compared to values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P<0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6h period of post-exercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+leu trial compared to the CHO trial (0.095+/-0.006 %(.)h(-1) vs. 0.061+/-0.008 %(.)h(-1), respectively; P<0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104 %(.)h(-1)). We conclude that the co-ingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole-body protein balance when compared to the intake of carbohydrate only.

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Y lo ya apuntado en el primer estudio:

There's also some evidence to suggest that combining protein hydrolysate with phenylalanine and carbohydrates can give you an even bigger insulin spike and likely assist with protein synthesis and glycogen storage (van Loon et al., 2000).

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Joer tio como te lo estas currando!!!

Bueno, estoy casi decidido; además del aislado de leche pillaré hidrolizado de suero (sale cara la broma, pero soy así de curioso) para usarlo sólo en el post con leucina y quizá Vitargo, que compartido no me saldría a mal precio, y así lo pruebo, a pesar de que soy muy excéptico...

yo creo q lo mas importante de el asunto es:
1) escogemos una duracion mas larga o una mas fuerte? o mezclamos?
2) HAY q aprovechar los 2 spikes potenciales
3) la suplementacion en megadosis con los BCAA (10-20g) seria optimo para aumentar la senializacion de sintesis de proteina
4) a todo esto sumarle un entreno donde a cada musculo se le da 2-3x semana y ser realmente activos a lo largo de la semana permitiria una ganancia muscular mas grnad ey menso grasa
5) la respuesta insulinica sera un non-issue xq cualquier mezcla la hace lo suficientemente grande
6) aniadir creatina y R-ALA... y listo

¿Y si facilitamos las cosas y hacemos el post entreno en el minuto 0 con hidrolizado, aminos, leucina, etc., y 80 minutos después hacemos ya una comida sólida (carne, leche, huevos...)?

Es curioso, el estudio contempla como una "ventaja" del hidrolizado el hecho de que los niveles de aminoácidos en sangre no decaigan tanto tras el "pico", y sin embardo denostan el suero, que a su vez hace declinar menos estos niveles que el hidrolizado. Eso sí, en cierto momento los nivles de aminos en sangre decaen y son iguales, de modo que se impone otra ingesta; pero es mucho más tarde del famoso "minuto 80", jeje.

Más cosillas, sobre la insulina:

De: (1) Rasmussen BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE and Wolfe RR, Journal of Applied Physiology 88: 386-392, 2000

The following information is sourced from Rasmussen et al., published in the Journal of Applied Physiology (1), which discusses rates of protein synthesis under several different conditions. It shows how spending a little time and money on the small things can benefit you tremendously in the long run.

1. At rest, with increased insulin levels, protein synthesis is increased by about 50% when compared with normal insulin levels.

2. At rest with high amino acids in the blood, protein synthesis increased by 150% when compared with normal levels of amino acids in the blood.

3. After weight training, protein synthesis increased by 100% versus pre training values.

4. After weight training with high levels of amino acids in the blood protein synthesis increased by 200% versus after weight training with normal blood amino levels.

5. After weight training with high aminos in the blood and high insulin in the blood, protein synthesis increased by 400% versus normal post workout amino acid and insulin levels. (2,3)

These results show the importance of getting post training nutrition right.

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La proteína debe ser de rápida absorción, afirma (suero, aminos libres):

When we talk about protein for post training, we must look at its rate of digestion. There is no point in providing crude proteins, such as meats, after training as they can take between two and four hours for the amino acids to be released from the protein and absorbed into the blood stream. Like our choice of carbohydrate, our choice of protein must have an extremely fast rate of absorption.

The only protein sources with very fast rates of absorption are either free form amino acids powders, which increase blood serum levels in 10-15 minutes after consumption, or extremely high quality protein powders such as Ionised Whey or Whey Protein Concentrate.

Power based athletes have less carbohydrate burn and muscle trauma than endurance athletes, therefore a post nutrition plan needs to consist of a moderate intake of carbohydrate with essential amino acids, including branch chain amino acids and glutamine.

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Ejemplo:

IMMEDIATELY following training

• 5gm of Essential Amino Acids
• 5gm Branched Chain Amino Acids
• 0.75g per kg of body weight of Glucose Polymer or Dextrose (eg 75gm
for a 100kg athlete)

20 MINUTES AFTER training

• High quality protein powder (30-50gm in water)

This regime will allow the simple carbohydrates and amino acids to elevate blood levels within 10-15 minutes to immediately begin the recovery process. The shake will then allow the slow release of amino acids over the next hour.

There are two key factors to rapidly increasing post-workout glycogen synthesis (8):

1. Adequate carbohydrate availability (to convert to muscle glycogen) (9)
2. High insulin levels (to stimulate glycogen storage and shuttle carbs into the muscle) (9)


8. Nutrition in Sport (textbook); Chapter 6, 97-111, 2000.
9. Sports Med; 21(2), 98-118, 1996.

Since most of the research on this topic has been done in endurance athletes, we have to speculate about what strength athletes would need in this regard. From the research, it's clear that strength athletes actually have higher glycogen synthesis rates after exercise than endurance athletes so they can more rapidly refill their glycogen stores (13).

But since strength athletes don't deplete their glycogen stores as badly as endurance athletes, they would need fewer total calories. With this said, I believe it's reasonable to suggest that a strength athlete consume one meal of 0.8g of carbohydrate and 0.4 g of protein / kg of body weight immediately after training.

13. Nutrition in Sport (textbook); Chapters 6 and 7, 85-111, 2000.

A couple of final factors need to be discussed. First, the research is very clear that if you wait to consume your post-workout nutrition, you lose (14). One study showed that if the post-workout beverage was consumed immediately after training, glycogen synthesis was three times higher than if the beverage was consumed just two hours later. So the sooner you drink the drink, the better the recovery rate.

14. Journal of Applied Physiology; 65, 2018-2023, 1988.

Secondly, with respect to the types of carbohydrate and protein to consume, it's clear that immediately after training, liquid nutrition is best tolerated (8,15). Since liquid nutrition is more rapidly digested and absorbed, nutrients are more rapidly delivered to the muscle. In addition, according to the literature, the optimal carbohydrates to consume are glucose and glucose polymers, like maltodextrin (8).

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Interesante, sobre el segundo "pico":

If the strength athlete is in a bulking cycle, the post-workout recommendations would include 2 servings of recommended formula, one immediately after training and one 30-60 minutes later. Normal eating could be resumed 2-3 hours later.

sergi

Conclusion?

Que suplem tomar despues del entreno?

Está todo muy bien explicado xo no he podido concluir en nada.

sergicrack dijo:

Conclusion?

Que suplem tomar despues del entreno?

Está todo muy bien explicado xo no he podido concluir en nada.

Click to expand...

Pues lo que yo concluyo de todo eso es que una mezcla casi óptima sería hidrolizado (0,4g/kilo) + hidratos rápidos -en el estudio, glucosa y maltodextrina- (0,8g/kilo) + leucina (de 5 a 7 gr post entreno he visto citado en la mayoría de fuentes).

El otro extracto separa el post entreno en dos tomas, tirando de BCAA´s, pero creo que es discutible su utilidad si ya estamos tomando un hidrolizado.

Yo creo que, en principio, por no complicarnos demasiado, lo que te he dicho sería un post entreno interesante.

Naturalmente hay mil opciones más y sin necesidad de tantos suplementos, pero esta es la vía que sugieren esas fuentes (que son bastantes y coincidentes en varios puntos).

pero un factor a tener muy presente es la intensidad y tipo de entrenamiento realizado, yo no hago el mismo post un dia como hoy que he hecho 145km de bici(4,5horas) que un dia que hago sentadillas trabajos de isquios gemelos ,etc...(1hora).

Claro, de hecho las proporciones citadas son distintas cuando el trabajo es aeróbico. Hablaba siempre de post entrenamiento tras una sesión de pesas.